Working together for standards The Web Standards Project

[To those who are advocates of politically correct language, I apologize in advance for the blunt way in which I frame the role of race in this post.]

Between Jason Kottke and WaSP founder Jeffrey Zeldman, the buzz is building yet again on the subject of conference panel composition… specifically, the fact that most participants are white men.

This is a standards issue, too. For reasons of culture and temperament, people who aren’t white men bring something to the theory and practice of Recommendation track technologies that would otherwise be totally absent from the evolution of those technologies. While those voices are present to a degree, it seems likely they are present to a much smaller proportion than their counterparts n the web user population as a whole.

While it’s difficult to prove the consequences of this under-representation, I offer a simple exercise: how would a well known standard, say CSS, behave if more women had participated in its formulation?

In any case, there’s no doubt in my mind that women and non-whites are under-represented in the larger public dialogue about web technologies because they are under-represented in the population of web professionals.

Do you agree with my assertion? If so, why do you believe it’s true? If you identify as a member of a group I’ve labeled here as under-represented, what obstacles or disincentives have you faced when attempting to raise your profile as a web expert? What stops you from successfully encouraging women and non-whites to pursue their vocations on the web?

Your Replies

#1 On February 25th, 2007 11:14 am Jim replied:

> For reasons of culture and temperament, people who aren’t white men bring something to the theory and practice of Recommendation track technologies that would otherwise be totally absent

How totally sexist and racist. If anybody were to suggest that women were unable to think in certain ways about technology, they’d be leapt upon, and quite rightly. If somebody were to suggest that blacks lack the temperament for certain concepts, then everybody would be shouting “KKK”.

But because it’s white males that are being accused of being unable to contribute in certain ways, it’s okay? Give me a break.

Yes, women and non-whites are under-represented. But that’s just a symptom, not the cause of the problem. Let’s not make up bogus racist excuses to appease the symptom. White men are capable of covering all the bases because gender and race are irrelevant to technology.

#2 On February 25th, 2007 11:14 am Kerri Hicks replied:

Well, no. I don’t agree with your assertion that women are under-represented in the population of web professionals.

I would contend, though, that women are under-respected in the realm of web development — in a way that cuts across most white-collar professions. And while I deplore the stereotype, in this case, there’s a reason for it — men sometimes do a great deal of work, and then publicize it to garner renown or distinction, while women often do a great deal of work, and then just continue doing a great deal more work. Unfortunately, then, it’s more likely to be the men who amass the the fan bases and build the ‘names’, and thus, the speaking gigs. (Of course this is a grossly vast and unfair generalization, and please don’t misinterpret it to mean that I’m implying that women do more work. I’ve not done any studies.) :-)

I haven’t often seen women seeking a ‘name’ in the industry. When I look at web development in education (my bailiwick), I see women everywhere. The groups of folks I’ve worked with for the past 11 years have comprised more women than men. But rarely are these women as interested in blogging or conferences — really, they are *very* interested in their work, but less in the glory.

A woman colleague of mine has been programming since junior high, and she’s remarkable. I have been a web developer for 12 years, and I’d like to think I’m no slouch — I even teach. Another friend has written functions that we couldn’t live without in our shop. I go to her when my multidimensional arrays crap out, she comes to me when her floats bust out of their containers. Sure, we’d have a lot to offer on a conference panel, but in our case, we’re too busy writing code to write conference papers without being asked. :-)

When I look at recent conferene panels (I was just doing that this morning!), I see many of the same names, over and over. It seems as though conferences these days are about seeing and being seen, rather than really learning. I would *love* to see a juried conference with designers and developers and programmers and academics who are writing papers and speaking because of what they have to say, and not because of who they know, or what they wrote about ten years ago, or what Web 2.0 company they happen to work for now.

#3 On February 25th, 2007 12:57 pm Mark replied:

Jim, I think you’re reading the original post as a shot being taken at the status quo, but I don’t think that’s what it is.

I sat in on the WaSP meeting at SXSW/i, and it’s hard not to observe a lack of diversity. But zoom out a bit, and you’ll see the same representation at the panels of SXSW/i, a bit more and you’ll see the same representation on the boards of most tech companies.

Vast Tech Conspiracy? Not at all.

Jump over to the advertising industry, and the word of the day is diversityafter a nudge from NYC’s Human Rights Commission. It’s unfortunate that the catalyst had to be a public hearing during Ad Week, but it’s not extremely surprising.

With the current diverse set of figures in pop culture and in the public eye, it’s easy to forget how young this country is when it comes to race relations. Assuming for argument’s sake that #2 is a Caucasian woman, just 40 years ago it was illegal in 16 states for her to be my wife. 40. It will be many, many decades before the makeup of our boardrooms match the makeup of our society, but that has nothing to do with technology.

The difference on a standard like CSS if a more diverse group was working on it? Who knows. If I could hand-pick the group, would it be more diverse? Without a doubt. But no one can say that we have somehow been short-changed by the standards trailblazers. By no means have any of us been cheated because of the makeup of the committees, as I challenge anyone to find a college Computer Science program that is significantly more diverse. There are many problems that have to be fixed upstream before we see the makeup of our boardrooms, SXSW/i panels, and WaSP committees start to match our society.

Homogeneity of backgrounds can lead to a homogeneity of thought and I do think that standards would benefit from a more diverse set of contributors. But I don’t think that has anything at all to do, specifically, with technology.

p.s. this heavy of a conversation is very hard to have via textareas. let’s not forget we’re all on the same team here. flame away… :)

#4 On February 25th, 2007 1:09 pm WaSP Member bhenick replied:

Jim 1:

You apparently missed my apology.

Briefly: gender and culture are elements of diversity, this diversity when present has an impact on decision-making and consensus-building, and diversity implies neither better nor worse, only different.

If you think that it’s racist and sexist of me to imply that processes dominated by white men are missing out on opportunities, then I suppose that basic inductive reasoning is racist. Who’da thunk?

(And yes, that line of reasoning does in fact lead down a damned slippery slope. If you want to have that debate, GYOB and invite me along, because the debate at issue does not belong in this thread.)

Bottom line: Gender and culture are valid reference points for creativity.

Fact: Men and women are physiologically and neurologically different. This search turned up lots of promising results to that effect in the first two pages. If you’d like, I can waste an afternoon finding a letter-perfect citation, then come back and leave that citation here done up all kinds of nice in Turabian endnote style.

If you’re going to tell me that these differences do not have a major impact on the relationship between gender and problem-solving methodology, I’d like you to put it on the line and edify everybody.

Likewise with culture. Each culture has its own attitudes toward leadership, work, aesthetics, and counterparts to the Platonic ideal.

I don’t doubt that there are a tiny number of white, male, Renaissance Men In Fact committed to the constructive evolution of the Web… but the rest (among which number I count myself) inadvertently wear blinders emplaced by decades of socialization, education, and physiology.

Sucks to be us, I guess.

#5 On February 25th, 2007 1:19 pm WaSP Member bhenick replied:

Kerri 2:

What you say tracks extraordinarily well with my experience after almost five years of being attached to WaSP (and five more years prior involved in mailing lists).

Your thesis is that as a rule women don’t showboat, but men do… and over-generalization or not, that was one of the possibilities I examined before writing this post.

Assuming that you’re right, how do we go about encouraging more women to speak up when it comes to conferences platform development?

#6 On February 25th, 2007 2:46 pm WaSP Member bhenick replied:

Jim, I’ve deleted your most recent comment, because it was squarely in the GYOB territory I staked out in comment #4.

#7 On February 25th, 2007 3:19 pm Matt replied:

I completely agree with this post. As an enrolled tribal member, it seems that the culture around blogs is to use the space to self promote. Getting readership means writing about your accomplishments. Many tribal people believe that their accomplishments are not their own — they are the culmination of their community and ancestors. It is difficult for me to reconcile these two cultures.

Also, responding to the claim that this post is racist and sexist. That’s bullsh*t. I’m glad this observation is being made by two white men. I’m here to tell you that women and people of color certainly recognize this divide. Conversations tracking inequity are important — especially among people who have industry power and who are not represented by the inequity.

#8 On February 25th, 2007 4:54 pm Coda Hale replied:

Jim, one needn’t make any negative assumptions about the cognitive or social ability of white men in order to believe that the performance of homogeneous groups have poorer decision-making capabilities than heterogeneous groups.

The idea that this post (and the implication that standards groups would be better for their diversity) is somehow prejudiced against white men is preposterous — a homogeneous group (regardless of the category of homogeneity) will underperform a heterogeneous group, almost every time.

…gender and race are irrelevant to technology…

No, Jim. Technology is a social product, and gender and race are huge aspects of modern sociology. CSS wasn’t floating around in some Platonic realm of ideas, waiting for instantiation by a committee, it’s a social artifact with a social history. I’m continually amazed by people who analyze corporate products from the perspective of corporate culture (iPod vs. Zune), but then believe that race and gender don’t matter.

Ben, thanks for having the courage to bring this up.

Kerri, why do you think you and your female colleagues don’t feel inclined to participate in conferences? What holds you back from self-promotion?

#9 On February 25th, 2007 6:54 pm harry Cornwall replied:

what are my odds?

#10 On February 25th, 2007 6:56 pm harry Cornwall replied:

how many of me are there?

#11 On February 25th, 2007 6:58 pm harry Cornwall replied:

how many harry cornwalls?

#12 On February 25th, 2007 10:44 pm Lucie replied:

Kudos to Ben for taking note, and Coda for his supportive insight

You, are in good company. Note the article written by Greg Papadopoulos, (Chief Technology Office from Sun Microsystems) “Engineering Field Must Have Diversity” for more insight by an IT leader who “get’s it”. Or perhaps check out an older article describing Anita Borg’s committment to increasing diversity in technological innovation, and the evolution of the Institute for Women and Technology.
Perhaps my recent about the experience of one of my high school girls who loved web design and proceeded on to enroll in Computer Science as a next step in her career might shed some insight as to the lack of women in Web Development work. (more articles like this this del.icio.us tag.

There are no easy and quick answers to increasing the participation of women in this field. The field of IT is still relatively young as a career choice for men and women. Increased awareness to the importance of inclusiveness as this field evolves is the first step. Perhaps supporting programs that work with younger girls as an investment in the pipeline of future women engineers and technology leaders is another. My program, Tech Savvy Girls, is currently working on a series of podcast that young girls will produce featuring women in IT. We are looking for women to interview using Skype or other remote tools. If any of the women in this list would love to be role models in our project, drop me an email and we’d love your participation. Thanks again Ben and Coda for being amongst the guys who “get it”.

#13 On February 26th, 2007 2:25 am Carlos Bernal replied:

This post is a completely Poltically Correct, trendy hand-wringing waste unworthy of this organization!

“how would a well known standard, say CSS, behave if more women had participated in its formulation?” WHAT?! What a stupid question!

There was a time in San Francisco when musicians were blindly selected to form part of the SF Symphony. Judges were behind curtains and accepted musicians purely on their skill regardless of background. The majority of those musicians turned out to be white males. Now, musicians are chosen not only by their skill but also if they are forming a diverse body…as a result the quality has diminished!

Please let’s not start down this road. I am a male hispanic web developer, with a majority of woman forming the company I work for, but guess what …WHO CARES! LET’S BE COLOR BLIND IN EVERY SENSE OF THE WORD.

#14 On February 26th, 2007 3:45 am Robin replied:

Regarding the question of why women don’t spend more time show boating their achievements on blogs and conferences, maybe that’s because they have a life outside of web development such as a family to look after? I wonder who is looking after the kids whilst all the bloggers and speakers are promoting themselves?

Regarding the comment #2, that conferences are for seeing and to be seen I agree with this. The last conference I went to a year ago was disappointing. There was too much self promotion of various products and too little discussion about how the product was built and especially why certain decisions were made. I remember one speaker in a particular spent 30 minutes talking about nothing but how great their product was. The experience kind of put me off future conferences.

#15 On February 26th, 2007 4:40 am WaSP Member bhenick replied:

Carlos 13:

The user and developer communities inform the standards process. If some groups aren’t spoken for, they forfeit their chance to influence the process.

If you’re happy with the number of women and Hispanic men who get heard in discussions that have consequences for the future of the Web, then maybe you’re right and this is just a bunch of useless navel gazing.

The whole point – again! – is that we all have something to contribute if we’ve got a seat at the proverbial table. So where are the other players?

#16 On February 26th, 2007 7:31 am JoAnne Thorn replied:

Please allow me to view the job postings on the quadrant site.

#17 On February 26th, 2007 9:36 am newcitynick replied:

First, I think diversity is a great thing for providing global standards and promoting global development. However, to obtain that should it be at the expense of white males? I think we need everyone to be heard with all of their different experiences.

The company I work for is split 7 woman / 9 men which I believe adds alot of balance for us. We are looking for people to do front end development and so far out of all of the applicants.. 1 female.

I think each person is met with their own challenges. And when I went to college.. there was no pull for female computer science students and certainly no pull for anyone to be a web developer. If we could begin at the school level.. I think that’s a good place to start. ( that probably isn’t a solution globally but it would be a good start in the US )

This is a need that the web has on a touchy subject with no simple solution.

#18 On February 26th, 2007 1:34 pm WaSP Member kblessing replied:

Ben, having participated in the CSS Working Group, I’m not sure that my participation (or that of the other women in the group) necessarily changed the standards. I was a member during CSS 2.1 editing and some CSS 3 work, so maybe if I had been around earlier, or stuck around longer, I’d be able to say something different.

However, when I think about evangelizing standards, I think that any two people (regardless of gender, race, etc.) will have very different approaches, and I think this is necessary to creating change on a massive scale. That’s why inclusion of women (my particular area of concern, being one) is so important.

I can’t say that I’ve had any obstacles put in my path as I’ve tried to raise my profile, but I also know that I’ve had a unique set of experiences (male techie family members that have encouraged me; a single-sex education that has empowered me; and the continual support and suggestions of both male and female mentors in the field) that sometimes has me seeing through rose-colored glasses. However, I try to let anyone looking to get into the field know what has helped me, and I try to provide the same for them.

Right now, I’m just not finding or being introduced to that many women who are seeing the Web as being all that exciting a place to work. However, if you’re woman (or man) who is interested and is looking for guidance, get in touch with me. I’d love to help in any way I can.

#19 On February 27th, 2007 1:08 am ray hunter replied:

Thanks Ben, for revisiting an issue that I brought up @ SXSW in 2000. I had ridden the “wave”, as it were, from 1995 to that apex, now known as the end of Web 1.0 It was consistently clear to me at that time, that there was little concern for inclusion, as is most often the case, where the possibility of economic advantage is concerned. I could always count the number of African American men, like myself, on one hand, irregardless of the conference: Java One, MacWorld, Seybold, Builder.Com, Flash Forward, and yes, SXSW. After 2001, I essentially decided I would be better off “stealth” and avoid what I saw as the track of self-promotion / book publishing / blogging, et all. I simply tired of pretending that there was any social benefit and/or satisfaction of being surrounded by folks who subconsciously questioned my presence at these gatherings. I eventually found that my early adopter enthusiasm and avid interest in new communication forms and technology were not enough to make me forget that my comfort level was diminishing. Call it “fly in the buttermilk” syndrome. It certainly wasn’t the fault of the others in attendance. I blame it more on a societal fatigue, which by the way, is also present outside of the technological context. Perhaps someday, I’ll begin to participate again, when I can be assured that the reflections that I see around a table are more varied in shade and gender.

#20 On February 27th, 2007 5:53 pm Brian replied:

Do you acknowledge that there are differences between people of the same race and gender? If so, then we certainly need to have a psychological profile of every potential member to make sure that we get a diversity.

(that was tongue in cheek)

Culture and gender can and often do make a difference in people’s perspectives. I grant you that. However, that is not the only aspect that makes a difference in people’s perspectives. It is an mistake to assume that a diversity of gender or race automatically results in a diversity of thinking. You are looking at the problem in the wrong way. You’re making the issue of diversity about race and gender when it doesn’t need to be about those things. Allow women, minorities, and yes…even white men, to step outside of their confined boxes. Otherwise, you are maintaining sexism and racism rather than fighting against it.

The whole premise behind ideas like affirmative action and gender quotas is to work against racism and sexism in the job market. There is, no doubt, racism and sexism in the work place. I have observed it. However, I don’t observe or hear of any signs of racism or sexism in technology circles. They all seem to welcome anyone that is interested in the technology.

An unfortunate truth in the world is that there happens to be an excess of white men involved in technology at this point in time. That is because of multiple factors… starting with a lack of equal opportunity in the workplace, and also social influences. (A father raising a daughter to be car mechanic is a rare thing). This lack of equal opportunity in the job market, however, does not equate to a lack of equal opportunity in a technology group. I just don’t see it.

#21 On February 27th, 2007 6:00 pm Brian replied:

@ Carlos Bernal

“There was a time in San Francisco when musicians were blindly selected to form part of the SF Symphony. Judges were behind curtains and accepted musicians purely on their skill regardless of background. The majority of those musicians turned out to be white males.”

Interesting. Perhaps when choosing a panel, we should ask people to submit their body of work and resume, and reason why they want to join the group, without providing their name, race or gender. That way, you can select a diverse group based on the details that really matter, their background and thoughts.

#22 On February 27th, 2007 7:24 pm Kerri Hicks replied:

Actually, I think it’s because of the tshirts.

#23 On February 27th, 2007 11:56 pm WaSP Member kblessing replied:

@Carlos: I’ve never heard the version of the story that you tell; the version I was taught in music school was that a (German?) orchestra inadvertently invited a woman to tryouts because her first name was ambiguous; when she showed, she was turned away. She fought and was granted a blind tryout which resulted in her earning a seat in the orchestra. The same tactic was used elsewhere and more women earned seats within various orchestras throughout the world. And I would definitely not say that the quality has been reduced.

@Brian: Adding one woman isn’t going to solve the gender diversity problem or result in diverse thoughts, but adding a number of women will. Listen more closely to what women are saying about their experiences — they may not reveal what they’ve experienced as readily as you might like, but we wouldn’t be having this discussion if sexism didn’t still happen.

#24 On February 28th, 2007 11:08 pm Ellen Burgess » Blog Archive » Notable web experts who are [x]: Women and non-Caucasians replied:

[...] Notable web experts who are [x]: Women and non-Caucasians [...]

#25 On March 21st, 2007 6:15 pm Katie replied:

I agree with #1 and #2. They pretty much said it all.

Add to it that women often don’t want to go for all the glory because we often put family ahead of career — I know I do. I think twice before going to a conference because I don’t want to think about how to get the baby taken care of. Not because we’re mushy headed or anything, but there’s practical aspects of keeping the house in order to think of.

#26 On April 6th, 2007 7:10 pm Uwe replied:

I completely agree with this post. As an enrolled tribal member, it seems that the culture around blogs is to use the space to self promote. Getting readership means writing about your accomplishments. Many tribal people believe that their accomplishments are not their own — they are the culmination of their community and ancestors. It is difficult for me to reconcile these two cultures.

#27 On April 28th, 2007 4:08 am Börsenlexikon replied:

Regarding the question of why women don’t spend more time show boating their achievements on blogs and conferences, maybe that’s because they have a life outside of web development such as a family to look after? I wonder who is looking after the kids whilst all the bloggers and speakers are promoting themselves?

#28 On April 28th, 2007 4:09 am Steve replied:

f you’re going to tell me that these differences do not have a major impact on the relationship between gender and problem-solving methodology, I’d like you to put it on the line and edify everybody.

Likewise with culture. Each culture has its own attitudes toward leadership, work, aesthetics, and counterparts to the Platonic ideal.

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