Comments on: Have Your Say about the Future of HTML http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/ Working together for standards Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:19:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Henry http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-57222 Henry Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:07:17 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-57222 First of all, please take everything I say here not as harshly as it might sound. I’ve swung way back and forth on the purist side and the soup, and then I’ve swung way out into a third dimension wherein the whole thing was a mess not worth fixing, and I’m still not entirely sure of the whole thing. I know I’m long winded. Sorry. Skimming it should work pretty well. In some cases, worse is better, particularly for humans; our languages (I mean regular human ones, like English) are incredibly redundant, arbitrary, and idiomatic, yet this is precisely why they work so well. Computers, on the other hand, do not adapt well to these kinds of ideas. This is why I feel the semantic web push is a starry-eyed endeavor doomed to — not extinction — but failure. It can’t reach its goals _all the way_. The extreme of trying to reach these goals would be individual tags for verbs, nouns etc. A not-so-far-fetched vision is a sentence tag, rather than using periods for this (not also this only scales to most some languages). The problem is that by this point we would have become so entrenched… so nit-picky… in the computer’s vision of our ideas that we would lose sight of them, and we still wouldn’t have a true, full representation of our ideas. Confusion and incorrect transmission of information from human to human is a natural part of life and innovation, like parasitic species in an ecosystem. We may not like them, and might try to exterminate them, but find they are necessary, even beneficial. Some level of semantics is beneficial, but going beyond that (and it’s not a point, it’s a fog) will detriment the ability of our already developed and tuned writing systems to get the point across. Too high of a level of tag soup is also detrimental; especially originally semantic tags converted into presentational markup. We also need error recovery; a typo in a truly XHTML document (with correct mime type and doctype) will throw a truly conforming user agent into a validation error page. Major publications and books publish typos, or forget a period. Not only these, however are what we have to worry about — they have teams of proofreaders and lots of money to get by with. There are also those smaller players that the web has been good to; you shouldn’t need to understand the technicalities to make a simple web page. Currently, if you don’t understand the technicalities, you write tag soup, because you can’t possibly write a web document the _correct_ way. We need a loss of distinct strict and loose modes. We need a looser strict mode, and a stricter loose mode. One possible address to this is using authoring tools to automatically produce the required technicalities. However, I feel this is coming in from the wrong angle. This is the angle, as I mentioned in the beginning paragraphs, in which computers do not do well with worse is better; do not do well with redundancy, arbitrariness, and idioms. Instead, we should come in from the angle of humans: the formats themselves (somewhat dead as compared to programming languages) need to reflect our arbitrariness, while the programming of user agents will reflect this back to us, as faithfully as possible. Note this spiel would have ended with the word ‘possible’ if it were not for this noting of such. This is the whole idea; to do what’s possible. First of all, please take everything I say here not as harshly as it might sound. I’ve swung way back and forth on the purist side and the soup, and then I’ve swung way out into a third dimension wherein the whole thing was a mess not worth fixing, and I’m still not entirely sure of the whole thing.

I know I’m long winded. Sorry. Skimming it should work pretty well.

In some cases, worse is better, particularly for humans; our languages (I mean regular human ones, like English) are incredibly redundant, arbitrary, and idiomatic, yet this is precisely why they work so well. Computers, on the other hand, do not adapt well to these kinds of ideas.

This is why I feel the semantic web push is a starry-eyed endeavor doomed to — not extinction — but failure. It can’t reach its goals _all the way_. The extreme of trying to reach these goals would be individual tags for verbs, nouns etc. A not-so-far-fetched vision is a sentence tag, rather than using periods for this (not also this only scales to most some languages).

The problem is that by this point we would have become so entrenched… so nit-picky… in the computer’s vision of our ideas that we would lose sight of them, and we still wouldn’t have a true, full representation of our ideas. Confusion and incorrect transmission of information from human to human is a natural part of life and innovation, like parasitic species in an ecosystem. We may not like them, and might try to exterminate them, but find they are necessary, even beneficial.

Some level of semantics is beneficial, but going beyond that (and it’s not a point, it’s a fog) will detriment the ability of our already developed and tuned writing systems to get the point across. Too high of a level of tag soup is also detrimental; especially originally semantic tags converted into presentational markup.

We also need error recovery; a typo in a truly XHTML document (with correct mime type and doctype) will throw a truly conforming user agent into a validation error page. Major publications and books publish typos, or forget a period. Not only these, however are what we have to worry about — they have teams of proofreaders and lots of money to get by with. There are also those smaller players that the web has been good to; you shouldn’t need to understand the technicalities to make a simple web page. Currently, if you don’t understand the technicalities, you write tag soup, because you can’t possibly write a web document the _correct_ way. We need a loss of distinct strict and loose modes. We need a looser strict mode, and a stricter loose mode.

One possible address to this is using authoring tools to automatically produce the required technicalities. However, I feel this is coming in from the wrong angle. This is the angle, as I mentioned in the beginning paragraphs, in which computers do not do well with worse is better; do not do well with redundancy, arbitrariness, and idioms. Instead, we should come in from the angle of humans: the formats themselves (somewhat dead as compared to programming languages) need to reflect our arbitrariness, while the programming of user agents will reflect this back to us, as faithfully as possible.

Note this spiel would have ended with the word ‘possible’ if it were not for this noting of such. This is the whole idea; to do what’s possible.

]]> By: Sergey http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-55562 Sergey Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:42:52 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-55562 Dear Molly and Team, I've translated your blog article with questions about the future of HTML ( http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/ ) in Russian and placed it in our blog: It would be great, if you could link it, so the russian speaking community will know about this translation. http://blog.mister-wong.ru/%d0%be%d1%82-%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%81-%d0%b7%d0%b0%d0%b2%d0%b8%d1%81%d0%b8%d1%82-%d0%b1%d1%83%d0%b4%d1%83%d1%8e%d1%89%d0%b5%d0%b5-html/2007/03/13/ Thank you very much, Sergey Dear Molly and Team,

I’ve translated your blog article with questions about the future of HTML ( http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/ ) in Russian and placed it in our blog:

It would be great, if you could link it, so the russian speaking community will know about this translation.
http://blog.mister-wong.ru/%d0%be%d1%82-%d0%b2%d0%b0%d1%81-%d0%b7%d0%b0%d0%b2%d0%b8%d1%81%d0%b8%d1%82-%d0%b1%d1%83%d0%b4%d1%83%d1%8e%d1%89%d0%b5%d0%b5-html/2007/03/13/

Thank you very much,
Sergey

]]> By: MisterWong-Blog » Blog Archiv » От Вас зависит будующее HTML http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-55559 MisterWong-Blog » Blog Archiv » От Вас зависит будующее HTML Tue, 13 Mar 2007 15:20:17 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-55559 [...] Эта статья была написана от имени Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group (WHATWG) и была размещена на нескольких блогах The Web Standards Project, Lachy’s Log, Molly.com и 456 Berea Street [...] [...] Эта статья была написана от имени Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group (WHATWG) и была размещена на нескольких блогах The Web Standards Project, Lachy’s Log, Molly.com и 456 Berea Street [...]

]]> By: Joe Shmo http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-54642 Joe Shmo Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:24:36 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-54642 Why web standards may not be such a good idea? I am an advocate of universal web standards. Man it would be nice to be able to code and get the exact same results on every single browser. Food for thought nothing more: What if “most” of the internet was all written and very similar? They all pretty much have the same strict tags. – otherwise you get an error. Conformity. What could possibly go wrong with this? For one it’s a hackers dream. Malicious code could be written in Robots and programs could scower the internet with less coding. Pages could be parsed with ease. Browser hijackers have no problem reading web compliant documents = your transaction is not secure. Everything from “fusebox” applications to the way things are “suppose to be structured” is highly predictable. = grounds for robotic type coding disaster with no hang up or trips. Internet data is becoming more transparent. Simple DOM scripts can parse compliant web pages with ease (already). The question is: Are “web standards” and fusebox coding making the internet less secure? Again – I let the web standards idea. I’d just like to here a pro web developer’s response. Why web standards may not be such a good idea?

I am an advocate of universal web standards. Man it would be nice to be able to code and get the exact same results on every single browser.

Food for thought nothing more:
What if “most” of the internet was all written and very similar? They all pretty much have the same strict tags. – otherwise you get an error. Conformity. What could possibly go wrong with this?

For one it’s a hackers dream. Malicious code could be written in Robots and programs could scower the internet with less coding. Pages could be parsed with ease. Browser hijackers have no problem reading web compliant documents = your transaction is not secure. Everything from “fusebox” applications to the way things are “suppose to be structured” is highly predictable. = grounds for robotic type coding disaster with no hang up or trips. Internet data is becoming more transparent. Simple DOM scripts can parse compliant web pages with ease (already).

The question is:
Are “web standards” and fusebox coding making the internet less secure?

Again – I let the web standards idea. I’d just like to here a pro web developer’s response.

]]> By: Have Your Say about the Future of HTML (from Digg) « My digg’n blog http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-54588 Have Your Say about the Future of HTML (from Digg) « My digg’n blog Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:20:45 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-54588 [...] read more | digg story [...] [...] read more | digg story [...]

]]> By: Adam http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-3/#comment-54433 Adam Fri, 09 Mar 2007 15:55:22 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-54433 I see many people complaining about that xhtml should be developed further and standard html should be discontinued. But as I understand html5 and xhtml5 are developed in parallel. So why don`t let the user decide what he wants to use ? It was hard work for many not so technical freaks to learn html, don`t force them to go to school again. I see many people complaining about that xhtml should be developed further and standard html should be discontinued.

But as I understand html5 and xhtml5 are developed in parallel. So why don`t let the user decide what he wants to use ?

It was hard work for many not so technical freaks to learn html, don`t force them to go to school again.

]]> By: Tanie linie lotnicze http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-2/#comment-54362 Tanie linie lotnicze Fri, 09 Mar 2007 10:42:50 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-54362 People use CSS2 all the time, and they even already use parts of WHATWG HTML5 (like the CANVAS element, or contentEditable). I do not believe that the W3C HTML WG will complete recommendation status by 2008; and neither do I believe that that WG shall be disbanded late 2010. Specification are usable before being finished but not before those parts are incorporated into User Agents, e.g., browsers. Safari, Mozilla and Opera (since they're the copyright holders) may be the first to include HTML5 elements and attributes once they become stable, Right? People use CSS2 all the time, and they even already use parts of WHATWG HTML5 (like the CANVAS element, or contentEditable).
I do not believe that the W3C HTML WG will complete recommendation status by 2008; and neither do I believe that that WG shall be disbanded late 2010.
Specification are usable before being finished but not before those parts are incorporated into User Agents, e.g., browsers. Safari, Mozilla and Opera (since they’re the copyright holders) may be the first to include HTML5 elements and attributes once they become stable, Right?

]]> By: Kai http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-2/#comment-54333 Kai Fri, 09 Mar 2007 07:24:56 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-54333 Es ist doch sehr gut, dass das W3C die Evolution des Web unterstützt. Es hat sich eine Menge getan seit Festlegung der letzten Standards und dieses durch Weiterentwicklungen der HTML-Standars zu stützen ist die richtige und wegweisende Idee. Es ist doch sehr gut, dass das W3C die Evolution des Web unterstützt. Es hat sich eine Menge getan seit Festlegung der letzten Standards und dieses durch Weiterentwicklungen der HTML-Standars zu stützen ist die richtige und wegweisende Idee.

]]> By: Markus http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-2/#comment-53197 Markus Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:54:42 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-53197 Ich denke, dass es eine Zukunft für HTML gibt. Die Webseiten sind aber nicht alle mit gleichen Programmen erstellt und daher folgen auch nicht alle dem W3C. Ich werde wieterhin HTML verwenden und mich dafür einsetzen, dass diese "einfache" und gute Programmiersprache erhalten bleibt. Gruß, Markus Ich denke, dass es eine Zukunft für HTML gibt. Die Webseiten sind aber nicht alle mit gleichen Programmen erstellt und daher folgen auch nicht alle dem W3C. Ich werde wieterhin HTML verwenden und mich dafür einsetzen, dass diese “einfache” und gute Programmiersprache erhalten bleibt.

Gruß,
Markus

]]> By: Michael Finger http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/comment-page-2/#comment-53184 Michael Finger Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:56:27 +0000 http://www.webstandards.org/2006/11/07/have-your-say-about-the-future-of-html/#comment-53184 Der Text spricht mir aus der Seele. Aber die Webmaster werden nur folgen, wenn sie einen Nutzen sehen und im Moment sieht die Masse keinen Nutzen darin, dem W3C zu folgen. Die meisten Seiten sind immer noch mit Tabellen gebaut und zum teil mit sehr schlechtem CSS und nicht sehr schönen html /xhtml. Von daher müßte es den Webmastern mehr ans Herz gelegt werden Standardkomform zu bauen. Mir persönlich fehlt ein html Element das eine Übersetzung kennzeichnet, so das man erkennt das es eine Übersetzung von einer Software ist und nicht von dem der es geschrieben hat. So haben auch Menschen die Möglichkeit etwas beizutragen, wenn sie nicht der anderen Sprache Mächtig sind. englisch>The text speaks me from the soul. But the Web masters will follow only if they see and for the moment see a use the mass no use in following the W3C. Most sides are still built and partially with tables with very bad CSS and not very beautiful HTML /xhtml. It would have to be put by therefore it the Webmastern to more to the heart Standardkomform to build. To me personally a HTML element is missing a translation marks, so which one recognizes that it a translation from a software is and from that that it did not write. So also humans have to contribute the possibility somewhat, if they are not the other language powerful. Der Text spricht mir aus der Seele. Aber die Webmaster werden nur folgen, wenn sie einen Nutzen sehen und im Moment sieht die Masse keinen Nutzen darin, dem W3C zu folgen. Die meisten Seiten sind immer noch mit Tabellen gebaut und zum teil mit sehr schlechtem CSS und nicht sehr schönen html /xhtml. Von daher müßte es den Webmastern mehr ans Herz gelegt werden Standardkomform zu bauen. Mir persönlich fehlt ein html Element das eine Übersetzung kennzeichnet, so das man erkennt das es eine Übersetzung von einer Software ist und nicht von dem der es geschrieben hat. So haben auch Menschen die Möglichkeit etwas beizutragen, wenn sie nicht der anderen Sprache Mächtig sind.

englisch>The text speaks me from the soul. But the Web masters will follow only if they see and for the moment see a use the mass no use in following the W3C. Most sides are still built and partially with tables with very bad CSS and not very beautiful HTML /xhtml. It would have to be put by therefore it the Webmastern to more to the heart Standardkomform to build. To me personally a HTML element is missing a translation marks, so which one recognizes that it a translation from a software is and from that that it did not write. So also humans have to contribute the possibility somewhat, if they are not the other language powerful.

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